Hey Guys,
We are kicking around the idea of putting in our first Horizontal. Our product line does not include ALOT of milling operations we can't do in live tool lathes, but alot of our products that can't be 1 operation seem to be growing. We are looking at a 400MM machine size.
Easily Accessable machines and reliable service in our area include:
Doosan (We have 4 of these lathes in our shop--- so, so)
Matsuura (No Experience with, but we have Nakamura's - distributed by Methods too)
Mori Seiki (The lathes have been Nice machines for us)
Kiwa (No Experience)
Mazak (We have a VTC 250/50D...I don't like Mazaks service, and not impressed with having to replace a Y axis ballscrew right after warranty went out ;(
Haas (We would be getting rid of our VF4....No Thanks)
Kitamura (No Experience, and no relationship with distributor)
Our latest new machine tool purchases were Mori's... NLSY and NLM. We took a look at the NHX, but haven't really moved along the other brands yet.
We will be machining Steel and Ductile (NO ALUMINUM). 40 Taper will Suffice for what we are going to be cutting at the moment.
We don't have a need for true 4th Axis RIGHT NOW
Any feedback would be GREATLY Appreciated!!!
Defintely get full fourth. I just finished HMC shopping, Mazak looked pretty good, and was very cheap compared to the Mori or Matsuura, but their lead time was too much for us. I think it would be hard to go wrong with the Mori, I think it has an edge on the Matsuura wih the box in box construction and double lead screws. Matsuura does have pretty legendary quality, reliability and service to its name.
For the price of a two pallet machine we were able to buy an older used Matsuura cell system, and other more needed equipment around the shop. Having 20+ pallets is more valuable for what we do then a new super fast 2 pallet machine.
A multi pallet system would be really nice, but we are getting REALLY tight with room constraints. That's gotta be nice having 20 pallets lined up like that.
I wonder how the DMG+Mori thing will turn out, so much model changes and I'd bet changes on where bits for the mori's are made eh?
seemed like the X series was to make a less expensive machine in a similar line at their regular NL, NH and such, kinda says so on the website.
I think this is gonna get highly confusing for a while. I saw yesterday on their website the Mori Duraturns are now the Eco made in china DMG sells? I wonder if Mori is keeping their original duraturn made in japan as well, or if that got dropped? that would leave that market pretty much wide open for the mazak smart series.
anyhow, ask them a lot of questions. One plus side is on their joint website it says 24hr replacement part shipment or its free (there's gotta be some clauses on that?)
Also seems worth keeping makino on the list if they're in you're area, there was a few mentions before of their prices being decent and they sure seem to know milling.
Mazak?
Good grief - Their service and the web are gunna be the end of Yammazaki Corp in North America if they don't git their chit together!
Have heard many times of folks from PNW fussing about their service, but in this thread alone the same is echoing from the Great North Woods (Minn?) as well as Back East too?
So just where is Mazak good at service?
Va?
Tn?
You could say that their equipment is so good that it is a non-issue, but apparently these guys have had some issues along the line. ???
From what I am seeing - the used market is chock full of Mazaks! They look to far outnumber any other MTB in the available used market hands down! Is this just everyone getting sick/tired of dealing with them and replacing them with something they can git some service on, or what?
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Think Snow Eh!
Ox
Good grief - Their service and the web are gunna be the end of Yammazaki Corp in North America if they don't git their chit together!
Have heard many times of folks from PNW fussing about their service, but in this thread alone the same is echoing from the Great North Woods (Minn?) as well as Back East too?
So just where is Mazak good at service?
Va?
Tn?
There are legitimate gripes about Mazak service, but 99% of the gripes you hear all have the same common denominator. It's usually somebody with a really old machine who's mad because they can't get enough free help on the .....or somebody with a very complex machine, who's mad because it takes Mazak two weeks to replace the spindle and realign all 9 axes on the Integrex they "just bumped it" at 100% rapid.
You could say that their equipment is so good that it is a non-issue, but apparently these guys have had some issues along the line. ???
From what I am seeing - the used market is chock full of Mazaks! They look to far outnumber any other MTB in the available used market hands down! Is this just everyone getting sick/tired of dealing with them and replacing them with something they can git some service on, or what?
-------------------
Think Snow Eh!
Ox
I've never had a problem I couldn't fix myself with one or two calls. I've had Mazaks for about 7 years now, and the only time I've had a tech out was for an install, or a move. The reason you see so many on the used market, is how many they have out there. If you count out DMG, Mori, and Haas, Mazak is bigger than every other "name brand" builder combined, and significantly larger than DMG, Mori, or Haas on their own. Take into consideration they've been building the Nexus series of VMCs and lathes for about 10 years, at a rate of several hundred per month in Kentucky, and then peruse your favorite used machinery sites and see how many you can find. Usually less than two (unless you go to a site that actively practices bait and switch, and advertises machines that have been sold for years, like Quick Machinery Sales ).
Good grief - Their service and the web are gunna be the end of Yammazaki Corp in North America if they don't git their chit together!
Have heard many times of folks from PNW fussing about their service, but in this thread alone the same is echoing from the Great North Woods (Minn?) as well as Back East too?
So just where is Mazak good at service?
Va?
Tn?
You could say that their equipment is so good that it is a non-issue, but apparently these guys have had some issues along the line. ???
From what I am seeing - the used market is chock full of Mazaks! They look to far outnumber any other MTB in the available used market hands down! Is this just everyone getting sick/tired of dealing with them and replacing them with something they can git some service on, or what?
-------------------
Think Snow Eh!
Ox
Everything to do with a service or support call with Mazak comes from a US headquarters (at least that's what's happening in our area). Our distributer is really just that now...a distributor. They have service guys scattered all over the place. In regards to the ballscrew issue: a service tech came up and replaced it. 3 months later we had the same issues, and a different service tech came up. He found that the last service tech did not preload the bearing right. Mazak covered the 2nd ballscrew due to this.
Personally, I like knowing who I am going to be working with when there's an install, a repair, a tech question, etc.... I really hate the idea of "Bob" from Illinois telling me what part number i need, or telling me he will me when service will become available.
Out of all of our machine tools we have; I would rank Mazak 2nd to last (Last being Haas) in reliability.
This is what the VP of Ellison in my area told me. I was somewhat surprised that they would be getting rid of the original design myself. He said in 3 years, they will not have the NH, but my guess is they will have an improved NH.
AND the NHX's will be made in California in the future
Interesting. I sure hope they come out with an improved NH. The current design's about 7-8 years old I believe so maybe it's due for an update. Twin ballscrews on the X and the Z simply makes sense and I hope they keep that.
The NHX is really relying on electronic compensation (scales and thermometers) to mimic the performance of the NH. It can probably achieve the same accuracy but may fall short in vibration damping.
Any idea what the pricing is like for the NHX?
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Like many who are first getting into CNC machining, I spent all my time looking at costs and very little on anything else. I did not have a lot of people to help mentor my purchases, and I kept thinking that if I made the wrong decision, my company’s existence would come to a quick end. As the years and dollars went by, I began to get a clear idea of the direction that I wanted to go with my CNC machining center purchases.
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I truly believe that if your shop is a normal job shop looking to purchase a machining center, you should focus on acquiring a five-axis CNC machining center and have at least one of them in your shop. The reason I say this is that all the drawings that I am sent these days have geometric tolerancing on them, meaning the features on the drawing have tolerances relating to each other. The five-axis machines of today are built to hold these tolerances accurately without having to do the many setups that are required with a normal three-axis CNC machining center. I believe that the more setups required to make a milled part, the greater the probability of making a mistake. With five-axis, you can do a complete part in two setups and sometimes less. This is critical and if you look around, many of the successful shops have five-axis CNC machining centers.
One of the pushbacks that I hear a lot is that it is difficult to program five-axis machines. I think many companies confuse the types of programming that can be done with five-axis machines. One of them is full five-axis contouring, which can be difficult to program but is helped by new software solutions. Another is 3+2-axis programming, where you use the five-axis machine to reorient or index the part so you can machine the features into five sides of the part. This is much easier, and in many cases it is the majority of the work that machine shops do.
I believe that buying a five-axis machine should be a higher priority than purchasing a vertical machining center and an indexer. Yes, the three-axis and indexer will be cheaper, but in the end, they are not as flexible as a built-in five-axis machining center. The indexers, in my experience, always seem to get in the way when it comes to effectively machining full five-axis parts. More often, you will have some kind of interference when it comes to indexers. They can be more difficult to set up if you take them on and off, and more setups could increase the likelihood of costly mistakes.
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The other issue I encounter is that there are five-axis machines in the market where the milling head indexes. On larger machines, this should be the option since an indexing table can be too large, cumbersome and expensive to make. I find on smaller machines that the most rigid set up is where the table is doing the indexing. This is especially true when it comes to bumps. It seems it is easier to align the indexing table than an indexing head. Bumps will happen, and it is important to consider this when buying a five-axis machining center.
As I stated at the beginning, there is always the issue of price. Five-axis machines used to be very costly in the past and out of reach for many machine shops. Today, there are many five-axis machines that are more cost-effective. It is important to evaluate each machine that is available to you, and to be mindful of the support as well as service and availability. Do not compromise when it comes to price, since the future of your shop may be at stake.
If someone had given me this advice many years ago, it would have gotten me further in a shorter period of time and with less costs overall. When considering buying a CNC machining center, it is best to think of five-axis first, since it will be cheaper in the long run and make your machine shop more effective and competitive in the marketplace.
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